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Oreegun wrote:

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The problem with taking Robin Hood out of Sherwood Forest and dropping him in Barnesdale is that you then have to explain what the Sheriff of Nottingham is doing in Yorkshire. The Shire-Reef would be an outlaw himself he started arresting people in the wrong shire! J.C.Holt discusses this. Legends by their very nature change, and there was obviously some interpolation going on at the moment the Robin Hood ballads were being written down.

And therein lies the rub, but the answer is beautiful in its simplicity. Barnsdale, Bernisdal, however you want to spell it, was within Sherwood Forest. By the way Oreegun, the sheriff of Nottingham would not chase outlaws - much below his dignity. What he would do though was organise a posse comitatus - the power of the county. It was the Saxon 'hue and cry, calling on citizens - twelve good men of the county - to do their civic duty. The expression - used in many a Western - organise a posse.

Graham P Kirkby wrote:

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Just read this This is Graham's own site.

this This is also Graham's own site.
and this, and guess what; this is also Graham's own site.

One thing in particular that needs pointing out is this:

"Formally an administrative area in itself, Barnsdale has at different points in history come under the jurisdiction of the counties of Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire, Derbyshire, and Yorkshire. Obviously as it was the sheriff who administered an area, the sheriff of Nottingham will have been in Barnsdale, Yorkshire.

Not only that but there were three Nottingham sheriffs who were also the sheriffs of Yorkshire. They were:

Eustace De Ludeham. Sheriff of Nottingham 1213 and 1232. Sheriff of Yorkshire 1225.

Brian de Lisle the Sheriff of Nottinghamshire of Derbyshire, was also castellan of Knaresborough (Yorkshire) in 1205, Sheriff of Yorkshire in 1206 and succeeded Robert de Vieuxpont in charge of the Archbishopric of York.

Henry de Faucumberg. Sheriff of Nottinghamshire 1318-19. Sheriff of Yorkshire 1323-27"

One thing in particular that needs pointing out is this:

"Formally an administrative area in itself, Barnsdale has at different points in history come under the jurisdiction of the counties of Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire, Derbyshire, and Yorkshire. Obviously as it was the sheriff who administered an area, the sheriff of Nottingham will have been in Barnsdale, Yorkshire.

And this is coming from a man who believes Barnsdale went up as far as the the Scottish Border.

Graham, where did the above come from? Formally an admin.............. And, again, why is a sheriff of Yorkshire never mentioned in any Robin Hood ballads, if he was Robin's chief antagonist?

Sheriffs of Nottingham were only ever responsible for two counties whilst in office, i.e Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire.

Eustace De Ludeham. Sheriff of Nottingham 1213 and 1232. Sheriff of Yorkshire 1225.

Brian de Lisle the Sheriff of Nottinghamshire of Derbyshire, was also castellan of Knaresborough (Yorkshire) in 1205, Sheriff of Yorkshire in 1206 and succeeded Robert de Vieuxpont in charge of the Archbishopric of York.

Henry de Faucumberg. Sheriff of Nottinghamshire 1318-19. Sheriff of Yorkshire 1323-27"

So by your reckoning Robin Hood was active from 1206 to 1327 - 121 years. But the thing that stands out is just that - they are termed Sheriffs of Yorkshire, not Nottingham.

Holt - 'Stukeley could not even get the spurious date of Robin's death correct; he converted 1247 into 1274.'

I take it that by 'spurious' Holt means the date on Robin Hood's suppossed grave at Kirklees. And if the date was spurious, what then was the problem with Stukeley changing it. 1274 is not simply a mistake made by Stukeley. It is pure coincidence that the dates are similar. 1274 is the date of death attributed to the man whom Stukeley believed was Robin Hood (Robert Fitzhooth.) Stukeley discovered more about Robin Hood's pedigree than Holt gives him credit for.

And I am more than willing to discuss Holt's attack on myself and my late uncle, Jim Lees. Holt was wrong, wrong, wrong.

robyn hode wrote:

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robert, i like the theory that maybe barnsdale was in sherwood, but a few points that have cropped up that know one gives an answer to are as follows:

1. did watling street travel through sherwood?


2. where is saylis in sherwood?

the description in the geste all point to places in yorkshire that are still there today. ive always thought it a little strange that the sheriff is of nottingham, but i think that maybe there are many elements to the story that at the time people were all familiar with but have become a mystery to us, including why we have a sheriff of nottingham and even who robin hood really was. im still (as yet) a firm believer in the yorkhire origins of robin. it would take something substantial to shift it yet for me. over to you robert!


Julie, your question could just as easily have been, 'Did Watling street travel through Barnsdale;' and the answer to both questions would have been, no.

The ancient Roman Road known as Watling Street ran from Dover in the southeast to Central Wales. The ancient road from London to York was known as the King's Great Way. The King's Great Way ran from Nottingham, through Papplewick, passed Newstead Abbey under an outcrop known as Robin Hood's Seat, on to Mansfield, forked through Pleasley to Richmond on the one side, and through Mansfield Woodhouse to York on the other.

The antiquarian Leman observed that,'We see therefore that Walton Gate is the older name of the highway running from Nottingham to Papplewick.' Nottingham was one of the five boroughs of the Danelaw. The Scandinavian influence is to be seen in Nottingham with the use of 'Gata/gate' for street names - Hound's Gate, Warser Gate, Fletcher Gate, etc.

Walton street was the Watling street of the Geste. Many ancient Roman roads were, by vulgar tradition, called Watling streets.

Interesting to note though that "Barnsdale of Yorkshire, the name itself, although quite ancient and probably derived from the Old English, Beorns Valley, scarely occurs at all before the 15th century, and owes nearly all its prominence to the Robin Hood legend." (Place Names of the West Riding of Yorkshire, by the English Place Names Society.)

Stanza 18 of the, 'The little Geste of Robin Hood and his merry men and the proud Sheriff of Nottingham,' says:- "Walk up to the saylis."
Various other additions of the Geste render saylis as sayles, sayle or even shore (shaw), a small wood.

From the 'The Lament of Simon de Monfort,' - "He wende ( thought) that the sayles were mangoned, ( mangoled - a war machine.) The sayles in this instant being a mill.

The Reverend, John Eagles M.A. formally of Wadham College, Oxford, transcribes saylis as sallows, sallow or willow (salix) of which there would be an abundance along the Daybrook.

My own preference is for a small copse of willow trees (salix.)

Yorkshire pundits championing a Sayles at Barnsdale, point to a Sayles Plantation as the place in the Geste. Sayles in this instance - they point out - being a personal name.
The Geste(s) in their various additions says, 'Walk up to, under, unto, into, and up unto, the' Surely if a personal name was implied the definite article THE would not be used. It would read, 'Walk up to Sayles Plantation, and so to Watling Street.

1) In the Rhymes of Robin Hood Barnsdale is clearly between Doncaster and York. Both places are in Yorkshire.

Graham, what Rhymes would they be?

2) In addition, when John Leyland, the antiquary to King Henry VIII was in Yorkshire he wrote this:

"Along on the left honde, 3 miles of betwixt Milburne and Feribridge, i saw the woodd and most famous forest of Barnsdale, where thay say that Robyn Hudde lyvid like an outlaw." Itinerary, V.101.
(Ferrybridge is where the marker is)

Who told Leyland this?

3) "Formally an administrative area in itself, Barnsdale has at different points in history come under the jurisdiction of the counties of Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire, Derbyshire, and Yorkshire."
Source:

Where did they obtain their information from?

4) Robin Hood's antagonist was the Sheriff of Nottingham who at different times administered both Yorkshire and Barnsdale in Yorkshire i.e. he was in Yorkshire.

So why is he not called the Sheriff of Yorkshire in any of the Robin Hood ballads. I'll tell you why, because the legend of Robin Hood is centred around Sherwood Forest, Nottingham, and the Sheriff of that county. Yorkshire has very little - if anything - to do with the legend.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, 'If you want to debate it live on T.V or on your local radio, I'll come up to Leeds or wherever - unarmed - and we can debate it.