Translation of the Gest

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (1981Marcus) — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 05:23:23 GMT

I know - and I took that as implying that the tradition was a venerable one. My point was that it really doesn't go very far back.

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Robhen) — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 01:11:06 GMT

I did say, "This is not the first time.............."

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (1981Marcus) — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:57:52 GMT

No, that's not the first time. As far as I'm aware, the first time was in Joachim Stocqueler's "Maid Marian". To my mind that's much too late to be a reflection of any genuine tradition that had failed to be recorded before: Stocqueler's inspiration was very probably "Ivanhoe".

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Robhen) — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:17:33 GMT

Marcus, concerning Robert de Kyme and the Crusades. While Robert was serving with Richard, brother of Henry 3rd, earl of Cornwall, king of the Germans and for a time, Regent of England, he was called upon by Richard to join his expedition to the Holy Land. The mission was to exchange prisoners, and confiscate a herd of horses from the Turks. The expedition was after a Crusade, but this did not make Robert a Crusader knight. But folk lore and legend did.

In the film Robin and Marian,...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (1981Marcus) — Sat, 19 Jan 2008 14:09:09 GMT

To be fair to Robert, that quotation doesn't associate Robert de Kyme directly with King John. The family could easily still have been in financial difficulties ten years later.

As for proof - all we'll ever have for any candidate is circumstantial evidence. (I agree that it's very thin in Robert de Kyme's case.)

Has Robert said anything associating Robin / de Kyme with Richard or the Crusades? Robin the Crusader is a product of the nineteenth century. We...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Graham P Kirkby) — Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:27:15 GMT

The program is Family Tree Maker. Mine is an old version and it works fine on Vista.

But you know, and I'm not being funny here, genealogy is the least of our worries. I think what you are trying to do is prove Robert de Kyme was related to the Fitzooths? Well what does it matter? The whole Stukeley thing is a fabrication...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Robhen) — Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:24:15 GMT

Graham, what program do you use to create that chart?
You show Hadewise Fitzooth marrying Philip de Kyme. Philip was not a de Kyme by that period. He was simply Philip son of (Fitz) Simon FitzWilliam. On his marriage to Hadewise, Philip accepted HER 'surname' and became Philip de Kyme. This is all written history. What I was explaining with the previous family tree was how Stukeley came to the conclusion that Robin Hood was Robert Fitzooth. Change Philip de Kyme to Fitzooth and...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (1981Marcus) — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:50:11 GMT

Checking on Lucy's marriages, the information appears conflicting. But given the known amount of misinformation about her family, that's unsurprising. I'll take your word on Roger.

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Graham P Kirkby) — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:17:31 GMT

This is the family tree constructed from the quote you posted and I am puzzled as to why it does not match the previous family tree. I have to admit to a degree of doubt regarding the accuracy of your source.

Secondly I cannot see the name change you talk...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Robhen) — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:22:25 GMT

Marcus, I have Lucy marrying firstly Ivo Taillesbois, secondly Roger FitzGerold, and thirdly Ranulf Meschin, Earl of Chester. So technichally speaking she was not Countess of Chester until her third marriage. The point though was to show Graham just one more example of the Ralph FitzOswey , Fitzooth, who Holt says was purely fictional, and his connection with the De Kymes.
Regards
Robert.H

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Graham P Kirkby) — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:57:12 GMT

Thanks for the clarification Marcus.

This is the De-Kyme family tree and apart from Robert being an outlaw, one of many, what makes this man Robin Hood?

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (1981Marcus) — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:27:14 GMT

Just to clarify: to say that Ivo Taillebois married "Lucy the Countess of Chester" is not accurate, as he was her first husband and the Earl of Chester her second. This Earl was Ranulf le Meschin, the First Earl of Chester in the Second Creation (not to be confused with the Second and Fourth Earls in the Second Creation, who have both been discussed above, and both of whom were also called Ranulf).

This Lucy has traditionally been supposed to have been the daughter of...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Robhen) — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 06:37:47 GMT

Graham,I have to rush now to tend my lame mare.Will reply as soon as poss. Robert.
I have shown you two sources of my information, 'Farrars Honors and Knight's Fees and 'Lincolnshire Notes and Queries' Two more are 'Records of the Kyme family of Friskney' by C.B. Wedd and Ros's 'Kyme family Tree.'

Will you now be asking Professor Holt for his sources, or do you just take it for granted that what he says is accurate. As you see in the...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Graham P Kirkby) — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 06:27:46 GMT

Why don't we take it a step at a time and deal with post 31 first. What I need you to do is to post your evidence. I do not want to be blinded by science and if it comes down to a contest between you and Holt, I will go for Holt. So how about showing to me the source for your family tree in post 31. Thanks.

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Robhen) — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 06:19:20 GMT

Graham it appears that you only got half of the thread; so to continue.
William de Kyme married first, Rose of Tamworth. They had issue, a daughter, Margaret and a son Robert. Robert de Kyme born circa 1210 and dead by 1278 at the latest, but probably earlier - Stukeley's 1274? When Rose of Tamworth died, William married Lucy de Ros, daughter of William de Ros of Hamlake, grandson of William the Lion, King of Scotland and Earl of Huntingdon.

Stukeley's Fitzooth, who...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Graham P Kirkby) — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:32:18 GMT

Robhen wrote:
Rohese was the daughter of Richard FitzGilbert. At the battle of Lincoln in 1141 Gilbert de Gant was captured by Ranulf de Gernon, Earl of Chester and Rohese's uncle. Earl Ranulf compelled Gilbert de Gant to marry his niece: he became Earl of Lincoln in her right. They had issue, Alice, who married Simon De St Liz, Earl of Northampton and Huntingdon.

When Gilbert died,...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Robhen) — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:32:18 GMT

Rohese was the daughter of Richard FitzGilbert. At the battle of Lincoln in 1141 Gilbert de Gant was captured by Ranulf de Gernon, Earl of Chester and Rohese's uncle. Earl Ranulf compelled Gilbert de Gant to marry his niece: he became Earl of Lincoln in her right. They had issue, Alice, who married Simon De St Liz, Earl of Northampton and Huntingdon.

When Gilbert died, Rohese married secondly Robert de Maltby, Steward to William de Percy. Rohese, the...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Graham P Kirkby) — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 06:21:06 GMT

It remained in 1746 for Dr William Stukeley, Lincolnshire antiquary, doctor and parson, fellow of both the Royal Society and the Society of Antiquaries, to provide the fictitious earl with a spurious pedigree. For this he first misused and confused the information provided in William Dugdale's Baronage of 1675 - itself by no means full or accurate, although a great and fundamental work for its date - and then, of his own, added families and individuals which were entirely fictitious. He...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (Robhen) — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 03:22:01 GMT

Graham, please post Professor Holt's damning indictment of Stukeley's Robin Hood pedigree and I'll show you how Holt got it wrong. And while you are at it, can you explain how Robert de Kyme became a Scot by his descendants marrying Scots.
As regards my allegiance to the Sheriff of Nottingham, she has already got it. I know Jeannie Parker from way back and she is gorgeous. I'll probably meet up with her later this month when we are interviewed by the French television...

Re: Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (1981Marcus) — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:17:09 GMT

Checking back, I see they still haven't reappeared. Well, all I remember saying was that: a) the Northumbrian border you're talking about properly belongs to the eleventh century or earlier, and would be of limited relevance in later generations; b) I thought the Earldom of Huntingdon was created for Waltheof - is there a citation for Siward possessing it under that name?; and c) although the Gordons originally hale from the Borders, Huntly Castle is way up in Aberdeenshire, nearly...

Translation of the Gest

feeds@yuku.com (nybor edoh) — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:31:04 GMT

Greetings fellow merry men and merry maids
I have just discovered this forum and was wondering what other Robyn Hode devotees think of Robert Henshaw's translation of the Gest.